Royce ANNIHILATED

[J-Luck]

wrestlers get spanked when they come into BJJ studios, happens almost every day, they get tapped in seconds, its a joke, they go for a guillitine right off the bat and then some dumb wrist lock and then they tap faster than a buddy rich drum solo. they have a good base, but thats it.

I had a post here, but it deleted... I'll repost it in a sec.

[J-Luck]

wrestlers get spanked when they come into BJJ studios, happens almost every day, they get tapped in seconds, its a joke, they go for a guillitine right off the bat and then some dumb wrist lock and then they tap faster than a buddy rich drum solo. they have a good base, but thats it.

Give a wrestler some BJJ training and he'll dominate the BJJ guys, I think the UFC has shown this. Wrestling is a better, more well rounded, more complete system, minus the subs. Obviously they will get tapped at first, I didn't deny that. Give a BJJ practitioner and a wrestler(with equivelant athleticism, mat time) and teach them an equivalent amount of each others style(maybe 6 months, 4 times a week as an example) and the wrestler will consistently tap the BJJ practitioner.

[J-Luck]

As far as this, it was too generalized, my last post addressed this. As far as grappling, bjj only has subs on wrestling. Give a wrestler a couple subs, all of a sudden you dont tap them with ease, instead they maul you. (aka Matt Hughes, Dan Severn, Randy Coutoure.). I find just in my bjj class though, picking up the subs were easy, I can actually control guys bodies who were doing this for over a year. I'm only a two year wrestler(meaning 6 months), didicated, but still, only a two year wrestler(again, two three month seasons). I'm not saying I tap them, but they told me a couple things after my second class and all of a sudden it just seemed like wrestling with a twist. I've only had 6-7 classes(i gotta get back) but I didnt have any trouble. I've wrestled witha kid there who wrestled and was supposedly good, and has won some tourney in bjj, and when i wrestled him(wrestling rules) I didnt think the skills from bjj transferred at all. And he's supposedly one of the examples there why bjj transfers... wasnt impressed at all.

Only submissions eh, I'd love to see your gaurd work, got all the subtle hip movement down, leg action, breaking of the grips, breaking posture. How's your rear mount defenses, you can fight out of hooks well, defend the neck, defend the arms, stay on the non choking side, how are your mount defenses... rolling over into rear mount is not a mount defense by the way.

How crisp are your submissions, sure you know what an armbar is, can you DO an armbar though?

What about triangle set ups.. you know what a triangle is, and if you ever get a guy with one arm in, one arm out, you can pull of an ugly one. How bout triangles from closed gaurd, open gaurd?, Spider gaurd? How bout adjusting your hips to sink the choke deeper after you get the triangle?... Whats your way of defending when they try to stack you?, Whats your way of defending when they try to slam you...

How bout Omoplata's, you seem to think very little of Omoplata (the user) here, how's your Omoplata game, do you use it for sweeps or submissions, do you prefer to keep them from escaping by controlling the body or the leg?
Figure four legs or open? How about your omoplata escapes, you've got those down? How bout your armbar escapes, triangle escapes? Kimura escapes.

Shit you learned the submissions, you dont need any of that...[/QUOTE]

It's true, becuase those body movements your talking about, are EASILY transferred from wrestling, my guard, after 6 classes, is difficult for any white belt there to pass, and I've yet to be swept by a white belt(im assuming i should be comparing myself to white belts seeing as to how i have 2 seasons of wrestling which would equal 6 months training). My rearmount defense??? Are you crazy, do you know what wrestling is?

And yes, I've already sunk in a couple arm bars from knee on belly and from the guard. Again, 6 classes has not been eoung to do exceptionally well, but from 6 classes with your theory, as a mediocre wrestler, should i have REALLY BEEN ABLE to submit anyone, or even prevent myself from being swept, or should I have been able to mount anyone, or submit anyone from side control... for that matter should I have been able to take anyone down straight to rear mount or to side control, preventing the guard alltogether. Now, don't get me wrong, when I face blue belts(who I'm told have trained for 2-4 years as blue depending on how long they train and how many times a week they come), I'm gettin the worse of the situation by far, and with browns and purples it's even worse. But even they are surprised by what I can do, and one of the browns actually asked me about my "hook defense", I had no idea what he meant, but then he explained he had alot of trouble with the rear mount sinking his legs in. (I didnt know what he meant cause we always called it riding legs in wrestling). I explained that in wrestling many people ride legs as a means of pinning and getting superior position, and as surprised as he was that we threw in legs extensively, I was surprised they did.

I love BJJ... don't get me wrong, I think sub grappling and bjj are essential to the ground game, If I didnt, I wouldnt learn them. That being said... It's amazing how Homoplata brings up the point how wrestlers get submitted by Bjj practitioners, cause if you bring a bjj guy on the wrestling matt, im sure he'll get dominated the same way. If you take it to UFC though, It's more of an equaliser. The wrestlers with superior body control, seem to pound the bjj guy from the guard sometimes. Not all the times, but it happens. I guess the guard isn't God?

[J-Luck]

As far as triangles... I'm not sure I like them yet, I feel uncomfortable on my back... and again, I've only taken 6 classes, so I'm told that will come with time. I do however love side control. I love keylocks and kimuras... those are probably my favorite submissions so far. I probably like sideconrtol so much becuase it's easy to maintain. When I was explained how to maintain it, I kept thinking in my head,"so wait, I'm just pinning the guy... they actually have pins in BJJ??". Also, once I have rearmount, I like that you can use the gi... It's cool that you don't always have to use barebody locks and chokes. I like(clock choke?????) where you grab deep inside the gi on both sides and just pull. Im sure there's way more to it than that, but that's as far as i know so far. I think you're supposed to do it in guard...

[J-Luck]

Samurai, again I'm not dissin BJJ, I just think all the positioning you're talking about, is stuff I learned in wrestling. It'll just take a lil time to learn how to apply it. It's all transferrable.

[GQchris]

there ain't no gracie nut huggin goin on here, more like gracie ball suckin, LOL j/k

[darrianation]

A lot of discussion comparing wrestling to BJJ Here. Wrestling is a sport an awesome sport, so is BJJ, the problem is that the two do not intermingle well. If you took a BJJ guy to a wrestling gym using wrestling rules (Greco-roman, freestyle, or whatever) the BJJ guys will have their asses handed to them. It’ like comparing apples and oranges. MMA guys don’t give a shit they will pound both (all things being equal).

[darrianation]

And by the way Royce showed a lot of guts going up against the premier MMA fighter Matt Hughes…who is one hellova attributed and skilled fighter.

But I watched some training tape of Royce training for the fight. Not much fire, void of any emotion, or aggression.

[OmaPlata]

So Royce Gracie is human after all, big surprise. The only surefire way not to get beat is not to fight.

or fight 9 times and say you have a 433-0 record

[OmaPlata]

Give a wrestler some BJJ training and he'll dominate the BJJ guys, I think the UFC has shown this. Wrestling is a better, more well rounded, more complete system, minus the subs. Obviously they will get tapped at first, I didn't deny that. Give a BJJ practitioner and a wrestler(with equivelant athleticism, mat time) and teach them an equivalent amount of each others style(maybe 6 months, 4 times a week as an example) and the wrestler will consistently tap the BJJ practitioner.

That doesnt make any sense, cuz a wrestler of 1 year and a BJJ guy of 1 year switch for 1 year each while still doing the other, the BJJ is going to be a blue belt at least and the wrestler might not even make it to blue by then, if he does, he cant catch up in time
I will agree it is better to start BJJ having a solid wrestling base in some ways, but in others it can hurt your BJJ game, but might be OK in MMA

[jubaji]

You need to stop this now.

[SamuraiGuy]

J-Luck, you adressed the rear mount defense, I'll give you that.. and you adressed triangles, basically saying you had trouble with them.

You said your gaurd work was good, you have no idea, I used to think mine was good, in 3 months I'll say, man my gaurd work was shit, so many things come into play in building such a solid gaurd, you have no idea, and having no idea isnt a bad thing, as you get better it just makes you want to learn more, I'm sure its the same thing with things in wrestling.

You say no one can pass your gaurd? Well thats great, but what are you doing, holding a closed gaurd? If no one can pass thats great, but only if you are playing open gaurd (just normal open gaurd) or one of the other special open gaurds, constantly attempting sweeps and submissions and not getting caught, then not getting your gaurd passed means something.

How bout all the omoplata's and that.. you didnt comment on any of the sub defenses, or using sub's to set things up, do you chain your submissions? Are you getting your submissions by doing an armbar, or are you getting your triangle chokes by doing an armbar?

And most importantly do you flow with the go? (haha)

[DaNutz]

Amazing how the everyone with a wrestling background is getting
all giddy over this impressive win by Hughes.

Remember this quote by Matt Hughes sometime after the
BJ PENN fight:

And Jeremy Horn who really takes his time with me and teaches me. Probably 70-80 percent of what I know is because of Jeremy Horn.

Matt Hughes, THE WRESTLER, didnt win this fight...That man
no longer exists.

[jubaji]

Amazing how the everyone with a wrestling background is getting all giddy over this impressive win by Hughes.

Doesn't look that way to me. It seems as if some very, very insecure BJJ folks are feeling the earth crumble away beneath their feet (for some reason) and are in extreme spin mode to salvage their tenuous grip on reality.

[GQchris]

so the deadly art of BJJ was diluted by a former college wrestler... hmmm, wonder if this hurts the BJJ McDojo of aspiring nuthuggers, lol