Royce ANNIHILATED

[DaNutz]

Wrestling is the more complete art.....

Highly disputable...Takes most about 10 yrs to achieve
black belt status in JJ......Takes many only 4-5 yrs to be highly
competitive in the NCAA's.....And how complete is an
art that doesnt allow subs and training from any position?

From what Ive seen from wrestlers entering class, they have
much more endurance/strength and a better all around work
ethic....Many would stupidly rather risk injury than tap unless
the sub is 100%.

All this talk about, "Teach a wrestler subs" and "With a little
bit of training a wrestler will win" is a bunch of BS......Your
basically saying teach a wrestler JJ and he'll win...Thats real
fair.

I have no doubt the learning curve is shorter for a wrestler
than someone off the street....But with little to no JJ training
the wrestler is just a fish out of water in class..

Ive never seen a wrestler with 6 months of training tap a blue belt.
With more than a yr of training you might as well say the
wrestler has fully accepted Jiu Jitsu into his arsenal and therefore
SHOULD never be called a pure wrestler (even though you guys
are too stubborn to ever admit this).

Also J-Luck it is just possible either: your very athletic and have
a natural edge over some of the lower white belts in your class...
Or your going to a bad school or maybe not targeting white belts
with your strenght/weight.

[rev.jc]

I know very few, very few guys who train BJJ as often as wrestlers practice, and the comment it takes 4-5 years to compete in the ncaa's that is a joke, these kids are drilling from the time their 6 years old.

My thing is it seems everyone wants to get on this power doesn't matter band wagon, wrestling is a martial art, a great one, matt huges has knocked out by doing throws, it just seems that no one wants to respect what is commonly availible.

I boxed for years I have 65 fights, and for some reason I come on this forum and some one calls muhammid Ali a mere boxer, that man has never entered a fight, I used to love getting paired with the karate school guys who tried fighting in the golden gloves it was almost like a buy, power and athletic speed matter, by the way abu-dabi came up monsen has a huge wrestling background, and lastly in the early ufcs when they found some one to represent boxing lets face it it wasn't a tyson or even some one like pinklon Thomas it was some one well past thier prime!

[J-Luck]

How? THe wrestler will get submitted if we send BJJ black belts there, but they dont allow submissions, so the whole wrestler non sense for a MMA art is pretty much 100 times as worthless as BJJ is in MMA

How... that was a stupid statement... and bjj doesnt allow pins... your point is??? Wrestlers have proven themselves effective, even against bjj in MMA, ever heard of G&P?? I'ts cause their positioning and body control skills in general are better.

[OmaPlata]

How... that was a stupid statement... and bjj doesnt allow pins... your point is??? Wrestlers have proven themselves effective, even against bjj in MMA, ever heard of G&P?? I'ts cause their positioning and body control skills in general are better.

effective? like severn and graice? lol. effective is a longgggggggg way from being a "more complete mma art".

[J-Luck]

Wrestling is the more complete art.....

Highly disputable...Takes most about 10 yrs to achieve
black belt status in JJ......Takes many only 4-5 yrs to be highly
competitive in the NCAA's.....And how complete is an
art that doesnt allow subs and training from any position?

From what Ive seen from wrestlers entering class, they have
much more endurance/strength and a better all around work
ethic....Many would stupidly rather risk injury than tap unless
the sub is 100%.

All this talk about, "Teach a wrestler subs" and "With a little
bit of training a wrestler will win" is a bunch of BS......Your
basically saying teach a wrestler JJ and he'll win...Thats real
fair.

I have no doubt the learning curve is shorter for a wrestler
than someone off the street....But with little to no JJ training
the wrestler is just a fish out of water in class..

Ive never seen a wrestler with 6 months of training tap a blue belt.
With more than a yr of training you might as well say the
wrestler has fully accepted Jiu Jitsu into his arsenal and therefore
SHOULD never be called a pure wrestler (even though you guys
are too stubborn to ever admit this).

Also J-Luck it is just possible either: your very athletic and have
a natural edge over some of the lower white belts in your class...
Or your going to a bad school or maybe not targeting white belts
with your strenght/weight.

Wait, that's becuase in general there is more matt time in wrestling... not becuase of being a more complete art. And you are 100% wrong. It takes at least 10 years to be competitive in the NCAA's, and most of the time way more(most of those guys have been wrestling since they were 5-6). So wayyyy off on that.

I'm a wrestler and I tap. I'm fine with it. That's a statement of thickheadedness... wrestling coaches try to get that outa their wrestlers... so it's the opposite, that is, if we are going to generalise like you are doing.

Completly agree with the work ethic and training.

And it is fair to say teach a wrestler jj and he'll win, the body control and positioning in wrestling is superior and more emphasised than that in jj. Not by leaps and bounds, but it's still more prevalent. So, it wouldn't be that hard to transfer skills.

Not at all a fish outa water. And no, I use myself as an example becuase I'm going to a good school, and I'm also not altogether that athletic. I'm not UNathletic, but no star at all. And the school is one of the top 3 in New England I believe, Tim Burril Jiu Jitsu, reccomended by BJJ.org. Tim trains under Carlos Machado and I'm told he's a big timer.

I didn't say I tapped a blue belt. I've just said that with a wrestling background it's easier to pick up, it's all natural to me. Side control is just pinning someone. Rear mount we train extensively in, as well as escapes from it. The takedows... well that's obvious. Sweeps came naturally becuase, again, the body control. Taking an arm or leg for a sub also seemed natrual, we manuver the body all the time for pins. Passing guard is just another from of body manipulation it seems to me. The only position I have trouble with is guard, not becuase I find it difficult to maintain, but because being on my back seems so wrong. I guess it's something I'll have to work on. I'm actually going back there starting tommorro(I've been on a hiatus since joining a couple months ago).

Stop generalising our mental states. I'm training so I'm not just a wrestler. I want to be a complete grappler. Why wouldn't we admit it?

[J-Luck]

effective? like severn and graice? lol. effective is a longgggggggg way from being a "more complete mma art".

It is. And I already made you look stupid with Severn. So don't even go there again. If you don't have intelligent things to say, then stop the debate. I already went over why severn lost...

[J-Luck]

RIght on rev. I didn't see that you already had put that they trained since 6 years of age.

By the way, as rev said guys, Monson was a middle school, high school, and college wrestler... that's his introduction to grappling... 10 years of wrestling... WHOA... and now he's a 2... soon to be 2 time AbuDhabi champ... wow! I can't belive it, the wrestler... lol.

[OmaPlata]

It is. And I already made you look stupid with Severn. So don't even go there again. If you don't have intelligent things to say, then stop the debate. I already went over why severn lost...

yeah you went over,, severn was a world class WRESLER and got completely schooled by a 176lb BJJ guy, that would equate to a purple belt these days. Real awesome training there.

As far as Jeff Monson, he is awesome at wrestling and then incorporated BJJ into his aresenal. He is so strong and so good on the ground. One of the best at any weight in grappling, he is, last i heard, a brown belt in BJJ, but I bet hes a black by now

[J-Luck]

yeah you went over,, severn was a world class WRESLER and got completely schooled by a 176lb BJJ guy, that would equate to a purple belt these days. Real awesome training there.

As far as Jeff Monson, he is awesome at wrestling and then incorporated BJJ into his aresenal. He is so strong and so good on the ground. One of the best at any weight in grappling, he is, last i heard, a brown belt in BJJ, but I bet hes a black by now

Ugh, this is the last time I address you becuase you're an idiot. Severn was unacustomed to BJJ, outa his prime, and DEFINITLY outa shape. (he now has black belts in sambo and judo... forgot what belt he is in BJJ... most of his wins are in subs now proving wrestlers pick up the sub game easily.

Did you see the fight... everyone agrees Royce got owned... then pulled off a sub on an outa shape, out of his prime, wrestler. But, he still got owned till that point. You're an idiot for not seeing that, and... you're an idiot anyway.

Wait... so a Bjj guy who wasn't even close to the ranks of the guy he was facing in AbuDhabi got the title twice with his heavy incorporation of wrestling... wow... SIMPLY AMAZING.

Ok, now I refuse to address you. You are stupid and deserve no further typing in this thread. Ill be happy to make you look like an idiot in future threads though .

[J-Luck]

Samurai

Samurai, make sure to go back a page and reply.

[SamuraiGuy]

Samurai, make sure to go back a page and reply.

I was kinda staying away from this thread, because I feel while an Okay argument, neither of you are willing to see any advantages over the other. You'll notice I never said BJJ was better than wrestling, or Wrestling better than BJJ. It may seem like I've taken the side of BJJ at points, calling you out on your apparent ease in learning the gaurd, but thats not so.

Had Omoplata said... "Well shit I know BJJ, all I need from wrestling is to know how to do the shot and a few ways to finish the double leg, knowledge of shooting for the single or ankle pick, and some ways to finish those. And I'm good."

Thats about the equivalent of saying all you need to know from BJJ is submissions.

I probably would have said, what about arm drags? the sugar foot? setups, ground control, pummeling for hooks, upper body takedowns, where to place your feet, subtelties of pins, A GOOD shot, (much like you have a gaurd, not a GOOD gaurd, he can have a shot, but not a GOOD shot), control of the legs, does he stick his head in or outside on the single leg, what are his defenses, how is his front headlock defense, front headlock offense. etc...

I was simply replying to a rather moronic statement.
"All I need from BJJ is chokes, armlocks and leglocks" is about as dumb as "All I need from wrestling is the single, double, and ankle pick"


Oh, Here's another thing that could possibly just mindfuck you. I think JUDO is the better art than both of them. It's recently been brought to my attentino why this is so. If you want me to elaborate on the Judo point... (I sense alot of typing coming up) I will do so in another thread and you and Omoplata can happily bash on each other here.


With that said tell me which thing it is you want me to reply too, or verify which statements of mine and I'll do it.

[OmaPlata]

Ugh, this is the last time I address you becuase you're an idiot. Severn was unacustomed to BJJ, .

yes so that proves the point you idiot, how else can you compare the two else in a fair fight? Severn owned nothing in that fight, he laid on top of royce and did nothing because he KNEW NOTHING BECAUSE WRESTLING TAUGHT HIM NO WAY TO FINISH IT. lol. are you really this stupid? Pure wrestlers get killed by intermedieate BJJ guys all day long, totally and completely owned, they have no advantage except with take downs, and thats not where they want to go., name one wrestler that knew at nothing but wrestling and won an MMA fight in the UFC or PRide using wrestling? ummmm, oh the DEAF GUY did ! yeah, hes awesome ! lmao

[SamuraiGuy]

yes so that proves the point you idiot, how else can you compare the two else in a fair fight? Severn owned nothing in that fight, he laid on top of royce and did nothing because he KNEW NOTHING BECAUSE WRESTLING TAUGHT HIM NO WAY TO FINISH IT. lol. are you really this stupid? Pure wrestlers get killed by intermedieate BJJ guys all day long, totally and completely owned, they have no advantage except with take downs, and thats not where they want to go., name one wrestler that knew at nothing but wrestling and won an MMA fight in the UFC or PRide using wrestling? ummmm, oh the DEAF GUY did ! yeah, hes awesome ! lmao

Tito Ortiz....

(Jeez I've really gotta stop looking at this thread, J-Luck tell me what you want me to reply to so I can stop lol)

[Slider]

About those comments that Royce gave his back like a white belt because he didn't train properly. Royce (in his prime) lost his back to KIMO way back in UFC 3 the only difference is that Matt knew how to capitalize on it where as fighters in early ufc's did not. And about him "not trying to escape" looked like to me he was trying to escape for a little bit but he had a busted arm and a certain MATT HUGHES on his back dropping bombs to the back of his head so he lost his focus.

[OmaPlata]

he was trying to escape for a little bit but he had a busted arm and a certain MATT HUGHES on his back dropping bombs to the back of his head so he lost his focus.

So this is verified that Royces 'arm was broken'?? If so, that would explain alot