tkd vs muah tai

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Heh I was waiting for MTF to jump in.

Like I said earlier I've been VERY exposed to many different martial artists and I've concluded it's not the art it's the fighter. I've met plenty of Muay Thai guys I could have beaten easily even before I trained in Muay Thai, not all Muay Thai practitioners are as serious and hardcore as you and me MTF. Maybe at your academy they are but the clubs I've seen have their share of regular working guys that don't like getting hit and just want excercise.

But anyway, MTF I just want to talk about a couple of misconceptions you have about TKD. We practice jumping kicks ya, but the really flashy ones don't get much actual sparring use, we stick to the basics much like kickboxing. Kind of like practicing flying knee in Muay Thai, you might never use it but it's fun to practice it every once in a while. Also you have to remember there are 2 major forms of TKD: one that has lots of hands (more traditional) and one that has barely any (olympic style). The one I do uses hands ALOT, it's my primary weapon. I'm not telling you this to defend bvermillions opinions, I'm just clearing up the misconceptions.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I was also waiting for you to respond. I know there are alot of people in this forum who think I 'm an asshole, because of comments I make but as everyone has noticed I don't care what people think of me.

Anyways I still refuse to believe it's not the fighter but the style.

The fighter might have a bit to do with it but from my OWN experience the style also has alot to do with it more so then the fighter.

Some people are born fighters and will be good no matter what art they take however they will become even better if trained in a self-defense type martial arts. A person with absolutely no martial arts skills but interested in learning self-defense will do best in a street /self-defense art so the art does mean alot but so does proper training. You can be in the best fighting style in the world but if you have a shitty instructor you're just as good off in a traditional asian art like karate.

Okay so perhaps I have been wrong about TKD but I was going by what I have seen on tv and the TKD guys I have fought against.The ones I fought always did fancy jump spin kicks in air which never or rarely worked.When seeing TKD demos on tv.they always show these guys doing spin kicks in air and breaking boards with jump kicks.

I thought Tae Kwon Do was supposed to be all about arsenal kicks at least that is what Tae Kwon Do is most famous for.

No offense but I still would never take TKD because I still see it as uneffective and I do martial arts for self-defense purposes also I don't want to do any more arts with katas.

I am a pretty stubborn,arrogant little shit aren't I ?

[Damian Mavis]

If you watched a TKD demo and they didn't do big flashy spinning kicks then it would be pretty boring don't you think? haha. Look at the majority of action movies, are these based on reality or what looks cool? Demos will always show the more interesting parts of a martial art.

TKD does have an arsenal of kicks but our style works the hands alot for close range striking.

I've met too many wimpy guys in tough arts to think the art is what street fighting is all about, it takes the right attitude and warrior mentality. But I understand where your opinion comes from, arts like TKD have families as the majority of it's students, whereas Muay Thai attracts alot of young gung ho athletes that want to do something "tough".

You might be surprised to know many very successful fighters get their start in TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Nick]

...

But how many of those fighters benefitted from the TKD? Not all of them. In fact I'm always ready stories about people were in a really crappy Karate/TKD class until they saw BJJ/MT and it was much much better and they improved much more.

Later...

[Damian Mavis]

What stories would that be? I'm talking about successful pro fighters in striking, not some guy who took TKD for a couple of months and didn't like it.

An example is Mike Miles in Canada, he was a 3rd degree black belt in my federation when he went and started cleaning house in Muay Thai matches, now he coaches fighters for televised muay thai fights. There is also Peter Aerts (k1 champ), he has a great roundhouse I'm sure he developped during his time in TKD. Alot of fighters have a substantial background in TKD, they just don't advertise it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[darrianation]

In Thailand there are some camps that cross train their fighters in TKD. Remember in Thailand the MT guys pride themselves as kickers. We in the U.S. and Western Europe tend to cross train in boxing and actually tend to be better boxers than our Thai counterparts.

A lot of TKD guys have made the switch to KB and or MT and have done very well. But the question is at least as I understood the original questions can a TKD fighter beat a MT fighter?

I think TKD is a good compliment to any other style of MA because it teaches good strategy and good kicks that can used in different situations and angles of attack.

I think that if the TKD guys have not crossed trained in boxing/MT I still assert the MT guy wins. Better boxing skills, clinches, leg kicks, elbows, and etc are the reason I assert this.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Answer to this is simple. If the TKD guy assimilated other techniques from different styles, arts, etc, then he'll be a formidable foe. But if he were to assimilate styles, that would destroy the purpose of this question. So let us say that the TKD guy did not assimilate other moves into his arsenal. Then the Muay Thai guy will win. Why? Muay Thai guys are experts in clinch fighting. You take the TKD guy to an area where he is not experienced he's gunna die(think early ufc when Royce Gracie dominated everyone because they didn't know how to work on the ground). I know some of you wil say that the clinch is not the same as the ground and the TKD guy could easily get out. But the thing is the clinch is sort of like the ground, they both restrict yoru opponent's movement and many strikes are lost and gained.

OK I'm ready now flame my ass

[FUH-Q]

ditto.......same skill, size, mentality and MT vs TKD (both pure and in a no rules stand up fight) TKD doesnt stand a chance.



an interesting side note, i just watched ufc 1 (no bighting, no groin shots, boxing type floor and everything else goes) and there were a few TKD and karate guys. the one guy that actualy claimed TKD showed up in thai shorts and didnt use a single TKD move, the other two american kickboxing/karate guys used haymaker round punches and didnt even attemp any snapkicks; they basicly threw their techniuque out the window.

now many of you will say these guys were bums, but they were all the champions of their respective arts the prior year.

[bvermillion]

Why does everyone assume because taekwondo is known for flashy kicks that we know nothing else? I study songham taekwondo and we do more then any of you would probably believe. We learn gun disarms, knife disarms, we use the same groundfighting techniques at our school that jeet kune do is implementing, we learn low kicks, elbow strikes, knee strikes, we are taught to bite gouge claw pinch and anything else. We are also taught in a fight situation to cheat first, cheat in the middle, and cheat last. We aren't so closed minded to think that we are going to get in a fight keep are distance then knock you out with a butterfly kick to the head. Now once again it goes back to it depends on the fighter to practice certain techniques like trechial shots. I know practnitioners of taekwondo that could practically spear hand through a guys throught and kill him. We are also taught to knife hand to the brachial nerve. We are taught pressure points and joint locks. Just because we don't do this stuff in tournaments or demos doesn't mean we dont know how. Demos are a show to get applause high spinning kicks enertain. Knife hand strikes don't. Tournaments are for sport: I don't know many sports where you literally attempt to kill your opponent. I know many taekwondo schools suck. But crap so do alot of muay thai schools and jeet kune do schools and bjj schools. It all depends on your instructor and my instructor is excellent.

[bvermillion]

I forgot.

By the way I forgot we also learn bo staff, chucks, escrima, kamas, tri-sectional staff and combat canes. This just isn't are school either everyone in the ata are required to learn these weapons at certain ranks.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Originally posted by bvermillion
Why does everyone assume because taekwondo is known for flashy kicks that we know nothing else? I study songham taekwondo and we do more then any of you would probably believe. We learn gun disarms, knife disarms, we use the same groundfighting techniques at our school that jeet kune do is implementing, we learn low kicks, elbow strikes, knee strikes, we are taught to bite gouge claw pinch and anything else. We are also taught in a fight situation to cheat first, cheat in the middle, and cheat last. We aren't so closed minded to think that we are going to get in a fight keep are distance then knock you out with a butterfly kick to the head. Now once again it goes back to it depends on the fighter to practice certain techniques like trechial shots. I know practnitioners of taekwondo that could practically spear hand through a guys throught and kill him. We are also taught to knife hand to the brachial nerve. We are taught pressure points and joint locks. Just because we don't do this stuff in tournaments or demos doesn't mean we dont know how. Demos are a show to get applause high spinning kicks enertain. Knife hand strikes don't. Tournaments are for sport: I don't know many sports where you literally attempt to kill your opponent. I know many taekwondo schools suck. But crap so do alot of muay thai schools and jeet kune do schools and bjj schools. It all depends on your instructor and my instructor is excellent.

"Why does everyone assume because taekwondo is known for flashy kicks that we know nothing else?"

Good question but the answer is also in your question.

If people weren't always shown the fancy arsenal kicks in Tae Kwon Do and knew more about the art perhaps we wouldn't have the opinion we do about Tae Kwon Do.You guys give this impression to others yourselves.

"We aren't so closed minded to think that we are going to get in a fight keep are distance then knock you out with a butterfly kick to the head."

If this is true then why is it I have often had Tae Kwon Do guys try and do those fancy jumping in the air kicks on me during sparring in competition ?

"Just because we don't do this stuff in tournaments or demos doesn't mean we dont know how. Demos are a show to get applause high spinning kicks enertain"

Well you can't blame people for thinking the way they do about Tae Kwon Do then if you guys can't enternain better then that can you ?

No offense but I still personally would never do TKD, because I'm a fighter and don't see TKD as being realistic at all.Don't worry the same goes for most arts like Karate,Kung Fu,Tai Chi,etc.,but that is just me speaking from my own opinions and my own experience with fighting for as well as against other arts.

[hEmPY]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Oh brother.... don't you realise that ANY fighting system would get creamed by Muay Thai...

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Tell it to Mike Tyson

[darrianation]

bvermillion

You say in your style of TKD you do all these other techniques other than the standard punch/kick tournament style stuff. You are not alone on this, many TKD schools teach self-defense and there are different styles of TKD that emphasize different things. However the question who would win between MT or TKD still isn’t answered here.

There are several different ingredients that go into which fighter can beat who but this can be difficult to a degree to quantify.

Ingredients:
1) Trainers (how good their instruction has been), (quality of advice they receive from their trainers).
2) Training (How rigorous is their training), (attention to detail), (training smart).
3) Athletic ability.
4) Talent.
5) Skill.
6) Toughness (mental and physical), (determination, heart).
7) Strength and conditioning.
8) Experience (how many fights/tournaments have they been in) (how well can they work the judges).
9) Luck.

All these things go into who can beat whom, but not what style or art can beat what other style or art, this is far more arbitrary.

Assuming all things are equal between the two fighters that is, same weight class and roughly the same skill level and experience the same amount of heart and determination. Also assuming the TKD fighter has only trained in TKD and the MT guy has only trained in MT then the fight as I see it would be determined on the rules of the fight.

What rules would be more advantageous to the TKD fighter? Which rules would be better for the MT fighter? Let us again assume the fight will not allow ground fighting. Then the only rules that would be more advantageous to the TKD would be TKD tournament rules all other rules would be a greater advantage to the MT fighter.

Assume the rules state anything goes as long as the two fighters are standing. This goes for with or without gloves.

Now the TKD fighter may know more moves then what he uses in competition but how well has he used and practiced these techniques while sparring? Probably not much. How many times has he used these other techniques in a tournament? Probably never unless he gets disqualified a lot.

The MT guy practices and puts to use on a daily bases: knees, clinches, elbows, and low kicks. When the fight is on and the adrenaline is pumping, you use what is natural. For the TKD guy it will be what he practices in sparring in a day in day out routine, the same goes for the MT guy. The MT guy is much more comfortable in using leg kicks to wear down the TKD fighter until he can get inside to box or clinch. The TKD guy will not be as comfortable doing these things because he doesn’t use them in competition or in sparring practice in his dojang often enough. He may know knees, and elbows but he won’t be nearly as proficient with them as the MT guy who trains and fights using these techniques on a consistent bases. So barring any luck on the TKD fighter’s side the fight will go to the MT!

Remember the original question is what style would win, not which fighter. The rules that seem to be accepted by most posters here definitely give the MT guy an advantage.

Oh and yea using knife hands in a self-defense situation isn’t very practical either

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Why does everyone assume because taekwondo is known for flashy kicks that we know nothing else? I study songham taekwondo and we do more then any of you would probably believe. We learn gun disarms, knife disarms, we use the same groundfighting techniques at our school that jeet kune do is implementing, we learn low kicks, elbow strikes, knee strikes, we are taught to bite gouge claw pinch and anything else. We are also taught in a fight situation to cheat first, cheat in the middle, and cheat last. We aren't so closed minded to think that we are going to get in a fight keep are distance then knock you out with a butterfly kick to the head. Now once again it goes back to it depends on the fighter to practice certain techniques like trechial shots. I know practnitioners of taekwondo that could practically spear hand through a guys throught and kill him. We are also taught to knife hand to the brachial nerve. We are taught pressure points and joint locks. Just because we don't do this stuff in tournaments or demos doesn't mean we dont know how. Demos are a show to get applause high spinning kicks enertain. Knife hand strikes don't. Tournaments are for sport: I don't know many sports where you literally attempt to kill your opponent. I know many taekwondo schools suck. But crap so do alot of muay thai schools and jeet kune do schools and bjj schools. It all depends on your instructor and my instructor is excellent.

Even if those moves were allowed, the result would be the same. You talk of using "cheap" moves like groin shots and eye jabs, etc., alright go ahead and try them. They are harder than you think. The problem with cheap moves is taht you can't really truly practice them during times of sparring, making it less useless in an all out brawl(note i did not say completely useless, you can probably sneak it in there if you were very good). An unpracticed skill is a useless skill.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by hEmPY


Tell it to Mike Tyson

I am anxious to see Tyson compete in K-1 in a muay thai environment.

I think he'll walk through most of them, but against Cro-Cop or Hoost? Without training, he will slow down after eating Hoost style leg kicks and loose the clinch against a kneeing Cro Cop.

[bvermillion]

I think he'll walk through most of them, but against Cro-Cop or Hoost? Without training, he will slow down after eating Hoost style leg kicks and loose the clinch against a kneeing Cro Cop.

I think if he wins one match he will be lucky. He only has his hands. His legs are tiny.